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Topic: Opinion on Terrorist Assault in Libya
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:: javierman
:: QA4 A spot of tea please, Alfred! | |
Yesterday or a two days ago new broke out that the US embassy and consulate in Libya were attacked by muslim terrorist groups. Four men died, including the ambassador who fought alongside Libyans during the revolution. Long story short, they attacked because they were offended by an anti-muslim movie. If you choose to read the whole story, here's the link:
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ti...--election.html
Most people commented writing they want to kill all muslims, accuse their religion of promoting violence, etc. What most people should be is anti-terrorism, not anti-muslim. There's a huge difference between the two perspectives. One is bigoted and mostly ignorant while the other sees reasoning and is blind when it comes to terrorism. When I say blind I mean they are against terrorism regardless of race or religion.
I saw photos online in which Libyans demonstrated their denouncement of the attacks. Many held signs saying RIP Christopher Stevens, the ambassador, and the one that caught my eye was "Libya is not Afghanistan." I'm not quick to judge, perhaps that's ignorant on my part (I'll explain later) because I don't automatically assume any Muslim person is a terrorist or supports terrorists. It's because I don't see them through black-and-white eyes, I see them through the greyness of what the world is. The world is grey and until people realize this, we can finally be open-minded.
Back to topic, there are many judgemental people in America. We may judge each other by how much money we have, sexuality, religion, or whatever they see unfit. And seeing as how 9/11 occured yesterday 11 years ago fuels the hate and discrimination against Muslim people. Unfortunately this tragic, single event changed the mind set of many people by feeling uneasy or racist towards Muslims. For me, it only made me concerned about airport security to ensure that this tragedy never occurs again.
An example I have, from historical events, that is similar to this is when we felt uneasy towards the Japanese during WWII, the uneasy feeling towards Communists (Russian or not), Germans during WWI and WWII. What I have gathered from these events is that if one person or a small group terrorizes the American people, we automatically assume they will all do it too. I still believe we can learn from mistakes and false assumptions as well as allow our mind to grow.
So as for now I am not assuming anything about Libyans, nor am I predicting what will happen to the people and the government. I wait and see. I suppose I'm ignorant for not being convinced by single events to change my mindset about certain ethnicities and religious groups. I am just ignorant for suspending judgement on others.
Note: when I write we, as in "we Americans", I refer to those who fit the description of what I've written.
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Post: #679845  , Thu 13 Sep 12, 3:36AM |
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:: Crispy
:: QA4 A spot of tea please, Alfred! | |
The problem with it that alot of people in the muslim world not only they can't bare the criticism against them, they release themself from responsibility for their actions.
As a person who lives with muslims\arabs his whole life and have friends who are close to me from there, i can say that yes not all muslims or arabs are like that alot of muslims are modern about it and taken it easier.
But now that it went off to inspire demonstrations in Yemin and Egypt and surprsingly here (which apreantly was planned ahead yesterday but more "silent") i think the reaction to it is very radical.
Same reactions occured at 2004 in Amsterdam look up Theo van Gogh and see how everything rolled from there.
From the place where we are right
Flowers will never grow
In the spring. Yehuda Amichai.
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Post: #679867 , Thu 13 Sep 12, 12:25PM |
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Yes, of course the whole business about the fact that not all Muslims are like this stands. That is a given. I know that most Muslims are not radicals and don't care about this movie enough to storm an American embassy. And I also know that the murder of the Christopher Stevens was probably executed not by the mob, but my other assassins and the protests were just used as a front for it.
But my problem is this: no, not all Muslims are radicals, but there do seem to be a lot of Muslim radicals and they do seem to have a lot of power in certain places. Freedom of speech is a double-edged sword. Yes, people should have a right to make a movie like that if they want. But they have to understand that if there are realistic consequences of probable violence and death, maybe they should think twice about it.
Many Muslims live in a world where they think that their religion and way of life is exempt from criticism and denigration, but that's simply not how the world works. You don't get to be exempt from criticism and denigration. All religions, all races, all peoples face it at some point in their life and we don't all react by burning embassies.
OMNIA SUNT INGRATA |
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Post: #679875 , Thu 13 Sep 12, 4:12PM |
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I definitely agree not all Muslims are like this, and I would also like to point out that the anti-Muslim video protest is thought to be a cover-up story by terrorists.
The brother of an Al Qaeda high ranking member, who was killed by a US drone strike was at the Libyan "protest". A few days earlier the new leader of Al Qaeda was telling people to avenge his death. Seems all a bit fishy, not to mention it was carried out at night and many people brought guns and other weapons. It seems as if it had been planned out beforehand.
There were some people who went to the "protest" and had nothing to do with the killing or the violence, which shows that yes not all Muslims are terrorists. But one group of people can ruin it for the majority. I'm sure you've been in a class assignment where you had to work in pairs, and one or two people would continue to do stupid stuff and the whole class would be punished for it where nobody could work in pairs for the assignment. It seems to me it's exactly like that, the majority being punished for the actions of a few.
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Post: #679883 , Thu 13 Sep 12, 5:18PM |
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You say 'similar to hating the Japanese in WWII', but it actually isn't even that close. America isn't at war against muslims. Some Americans even are muslims.
But I agree with you in all other ways. People choose to be anti-muslim rather than anti-terrorist.
A terrorist isn't going to be a terrorist solely because there was a single anti-Muslim movie. Those people are well and truly batshit insane before the movie was even thought up. Any sort of violence like that, whatever the reason, is just hiding behind excuses.
It saddens me how blind some people can be. Terrorist regimes are often as bad for moderate muslims as they are for other religions and Americans. There are an awful lot of radical muslims. But if I remember rightly, America had its fair share of radical christians - or have you all forgotten the lynching in the 1920's? Or the witch trials that you lot had, well after everyone else had acknowledged that witches don't exist? Or lets go even further back, to the crusades. All groups have radical times that will pass. This is simply Islam's time, sad as it is. And radical christians still exist today - that doesn't mean the majority of Christians are radical. Just because you only hear about the radical muslims doesn't mean that muslims are majority radical. You're simply unfamiliar with them, and given biased information - it's not your fault, but ignorance should always be avoided. When I lived in the middle east, a friend of mine was killed in a bombing of a local theatre. The terrorist was an extremist Christian - but the nation that I was in had never had an attack by any sort of muslim on any other sort of muslim, or non-muslim. So if I was to go by the information I had, I would say that Christians were the extremist murderers. All Abrahamic religions lend themselves to that sort of behaviour - it doesn't mean that they're inherently bad.
Extremist Christians simply don't get the same publicity, because Americans don't want to hear that their own religion has extremists too. Nobody wants to hear something like that about their religion. Unfortunately, because they don't hear it, they forget it, and that allows an 'us and them' mentality that will end up in more deaths and more hatred than anything otherwise would.
Wow, got off topic there. I just hope the US doesn't start another war.
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Post: #679998 , Fri 14 Sep 12, 9:48AM |
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:: Lia47
:: QA9 Grand Elder | |
@tannan, I think he was talking about the way Japanese-American citizens were treated during world war two, and likening it to the way Islamic Americans are being treated during the "war on terror". Hopefully the government will never decide to start putting American Muslims in internment camps.
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Post: #680000 , Fri 14 Sep 12, 10:23AM |
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That's the thing, tannan, it isn't just a small group of terrorists attacking US embassies, it's mass groups of Muslims, regular every-day followers. I'm sure most of the murders were carried out by extremists, but the people storming the embassies aren't really extremists, unless we're willing to label a huge chunk of Muslims as "extremists"...
Many Muslims feel that their way of life is being attacked by the West, and you don't have to be an extremist to think that. They think that the only reasonable reaction is hostility, otherwise they're way of life will come to an end.
OMNIA SUNT INGRATA |
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Post: #680023 , Fri 14 Sep 12, 4:32PM |
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:: Crispy
:: QA4 A spot of tea please, Alfred! | |
like i said ,
i live with muslims but ironicly the riots now across the muslim world emphesize the insulting message behind the movie.
Sadly in most extrimist parts of religion's the moderated voice either rather stay quiet or is silenced. And most of them refuse to stand against whats happening or let a different voice out because they are scared, you will see it once in a while where they say "thats not the message of our religion" or somthing around it in any religion but they refuse to take responsability for the action of their own religious group.
like i said this is the same thing that happened with what coused the murder of Theo Van Gogh alot of people decided to "sorta" forget about the sorry but its the same thing.
And for example if jews would riot like that on everytime people would laugh at their culture or about them pretty sure alot of places would hae been burnt down by now.
So you get a little "artistic" crtisisim its not like Muslims never use artistic\media tools to send the same message against others.
From the place where we are right
Flowers will never grow
In the spring. Yehuda Amichai.
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Post: #680042 , Fri 14 Sep 12, 8:45PM |
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You can't blame the entire Muslim world on that, it's not right, but the Terrorist attack wasn't right either. I mean, yeah, someone made an Anti-Muslim film, but that is not pretext to kill. Jesus, it's just terrible. I mean, I can't really blame people for being so hateful either. It's not right, it's not good, but it's perfectly understandable. People who lost their family members and loved ones, they have a right to be mad, and it's only human to be mad. People don't always rationally direct their anger, but people will ultimately be people. But it's honestly disgusting to me that because of a movie, people lost their shit like that. I have seen many disgusting and vile things, insulting things, but I never went out and killed anyone.
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Post: #680046 , Fri 14 Sep 12, 9:12PM |
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:: Crispy
:: QA4 A spot of tea please, Alfred! | |
@ Paul
well, i can say that on one side its not legitimate to be angry at all muslims ofcourse but on the other its a large scale of people who are extrimist in that percentage who taken part in those riots.
And its wide spreaded, for instance that they attacked at egypt now a peacekeeper base at sinai it spreads in large scale the issue.
I think the riots are somthing that goes over it bieng the radical's but more into using as an excuse the movie because the movie was there for a while now.
From the place where we are right
Flowers will never grow
In the spring. Yehuda Amichai.
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Post: #680059 , Fri 14 Sep 12, 9:45PM |
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I never said it was legitimate. But it is understandable. There is a difference between something that is legitimate or excusable, and something that is understandable.
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Post: #680098 , Sat 15 Sep 12, 2:06AM |
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:: Crispy
:: QA4 A spot of tea please, Alfred! | |
Okay i miss read the context than.
i apologise. Yet i don't see how is that understandable, getting to a point where you get to violant riots is beyond my understanding.
Getting angry for your idiology and protesting against the video and calling for the president to condemend this video would proove how much the "Arab Spring" achieved really.
The same as i get really mad when the Orthodox jews here burn trash cans and throw what ever they can everywhere, and in response secular and moderate jews make a quiet protest seems to work better.
But that act puts so many muslims to shame that i pity the way they are scared to stand up for their own idiology and get hit by the fire from both sides.
It really is sad.
From the place where we are right
Flowers will never grow
In the spring. Yehuda Amichai.
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Post: #680104 , Sat 15 Sep 12, 2:32AM |
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It's not understandable as in logical or reasonable. It's understandable as in I understand, because I can understand most people.
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Post: #680106 , Sat 15 Sep 12, 2:39AM |
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The prejudice against Muslims is not excusable. America was supposed to be built on religious freedom, but some dumb asses seem to think that only applies to the different denominations of Christianity. Of course they have the right to their opinion, but sometimes opinions are better kept to oneself.
I can understand why Muslims were upset, they had a right to be, but I also believe that killing someone isn't exactly the best way they could have gotten their message across. I think by doing that they just put themselves in an even worse situation. I can understand why they did what they did, whether it was right or wrong.
You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you're all the same.
"Rub that glitter and grease around"
~Lady Gaga
"I'm fierce and I'm feeling mighty. I'm a golden girl, I'm an aphrodite, alright!"
~Kylie Minogue
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Post: #680120 , Sat 15 Sep 12, 3:49AM |
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@ Dominykas
And the Westboro baptist church are just regular, every-day Christians.
Is your way of life entirely based around your religion? The impression I got when I lived in the middle east was that they disliked Americans because they felt Americans disrespected their culture - which you might view as being Islam, but I knew plenty of non-Muslim Arabs who felt the same.
It's much more violent in the Arabian and African nations because they are, in general, much more violent. I don't know if you noticed, but Libya just got out of a civil war, and before that decades of military dictatorship. Even before that civil war - when I lived there - they disliked America, though not nearly as much as they hate the Italians. They are using a documentary as an excuse to express their anger - anger which has built up due to their political climate. There are many anti-Islam documentaries that haven't sparked riots. But really, you should see how bad they are to the Italians. I'm fairly certain that if an Italian walked into Tripoli they would be murdered within the week. That's not a religious issue either - it's just hatred.
An Australian was once murdered in North Korea because they thought he was American. Does that mean that we criticise North Koreans for being Korean, and Koreans for being violent? No - we criticise the regime for being batshit insane. But they were Korean. And the Australian wasn't. So that was a factor. Right?
If anything, we should blame the Libyan regime, or just straight up blame the murderers.
I'm just saying that the fact that they're muslim really is only playing a tiny role in this entire situation - despite the way it is blown out of proportion.
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Post: #680127 , Sat 15 Sep 12, 4:37AM |
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The Westboro Baptist Church are not your run of the mill Christians. Never make that mistake.
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Post: #680128 , Sat 15 Sep 12, 4:43AM |
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Paul, that's what I'm saying. But they are ordinary people. They're not militants.
I have nothing against Christianity. I know full well that the Westboro Baptist Church is a VERY poor representation of their faith. If they were to step things up a notch and become violent, would we blame Christianity, or would we blame them for being crazy?
The political situation in Libya is perfect for absolute crazies like that to cause violence in the name of their faith. Doesn't mean, though, that it's their faith that is the problem. If Islam was the problem, we'd get random converts from other nations also becoming terrorists. We don't - we get people from the politically unstable nations, and people very closely linked to them (a first generation emmigrant, for example).
At no point did I mean to come off as if I was attacking Christianity. I'm sorry if anyone felt it was that way.
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Post: #680147 , Sat 15 Sep 12, 11:27AM |
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I actually like the Westboro Baptist Church because they give a bad name to bigotry. Everyone else who is a bigot is not more likely to look at themselves and say "Damn I look like a total twat!"
But yeah. I know they're pretty peaceful. But what is interesting is that the attacks didn't JUST happen on American territories and Embassies *By the way the guy who made the film is an Egyptian Christian.* but they also attacked random places all over the world. Like this one German embassy for example...it is just something to consider.
Another interesting thing is that the film was basically saying that Muslims are terrorists. They went apeshit and got insulted, and started blowing things up.
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Post: #680157 , Sat 15 Sep 12, 1:53PM |
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It reminds me of that parody picket sign: "Behead those who say Islam is violent."
But a lot of people do believe that insulting Mohammed is something that you should die for. And what I want to know is: is that just the thinking of "extremists" or is that a more mainstream Muslim view?
OMNIA SUNT INGRATA |
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Post: #680181 , Sat 15 Sep 12, 5:36PM |
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Well, that can be their opinion, but they damn well better keep that particular opinion to themselves.
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Post: #680195 , Sat 15 Sep 12, 7:10PM |
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