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Topic: Legal v Illegal Immigration
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A reminder to everyone to respect others opinions, whether you think they're right or not - Jay |
:: sine
:: QA7 Taking responsibility | |
grr... this topic gets me so steamed. I'm sick of people lumping legal and illegal immigrants together.
The debate isn't over immigration, it's over ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. That means crossing the borders of the country without getting the papers to do so first.
First, lemme say that I know US immigration law is flawed for a number of reasons and that causes a number of people a number of problems. I don't think it's right to separate loved ones or anything like that, UNLESS it's an illegal immigrant trying to sneak the rest of the family ino the country or a woman sneaking across the border and popping out an anchor baby. 
I don't have a problem with the people themselves, it's just the way they decide to enter the country. I mean... there just has to be some sort of immigration mechanism enforced to keep people we need in and people we'd rather not have, such as rapists and murders, out. I think that should also extend to people with debilitating contagious diseases that cannot support themselves. I know that sounds cruel, but that's real life.
The US economy can't handle all of the illegal immigrants... That's the bottom line. Yeah, they give the economy a little, but they take so much more! Hospitals in border states, school districts, even welfare programs are all suffering. 25% of the US prison population is now composed of illegal immigrants.
So... when is enough enough? I know the problem can't be completely stopped, but let's put some troops on the border and build that damned wall. Then, every employer caught with an illegal alien hired should actully be charged the $10k fine per illegal that they're supposed to pay now.
Once that's done, reform the laws that are unfair and make some sort of visa program that allows people to work here as long as they pay taxes and stuff. That means a guest worker program, but not an amnesty program. Amnesty is wrong. I think if we give the illegals amnesty, we might as well give anyone else who's broken the law a free pass.
I think once some better standards are set that allow better control over the flow of immigrants, that some portions of immigration laws should be laxened. People should be able to move in with LEGAL family members or lovers.
Immigrants are great. I have nothing against immigrationn. Somewhere along the line, my family immigrated. However, they did so LEGALLY. They did so through Ellis Island. They didn't sneak in on a boat or sneak across a border or make someone else pay their way in America. They did it themselves, and so can the Shakespeare-damned illegal immigrants.
Sorry for that. ^_^ Couldn't resist.
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
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Post: #60212  , Thu 4 May 06, 4:53AM |
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I only have limited time to make this post, I'll add more later, but for now-
It would be a huge policy and economic disaster to make a wall the entire border of Mexico.
The mere impulse of appetite is slavery, while obedience to the law we prescribe to ourselves is liberty. - Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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Post: #60280 , Thu 4 May 06, 9:36PM |
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The wall thing is stupid idea . Just imagine how much that would cost and since the US is already so deeply in debt ....
As for immigration being a person that legally immigrated into Canada I feel pretty strongly against illegal immigration . As far as I'm concerned all illegal immigrants should be shipped back to where they came from , unless of coarse they face persecution at home .
Let's have a black celebration
Black celebration
Tonight
To celebrate the fact
That we've seen the back
Of another black day
M.L Gore
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Post: #60284 , Thu 4 May 06, 10:37PM |
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:: sine
:: QA7 Taking responsibility | |
Well, compare that to the cost of all the illegals in prisons and all the illegal kids in public schools and all of the illegal kids in public school that get free meals and all the illegals that don't pay taxes and all the illegals that get free healthcare and all the illegals that are on wellfare and all the illegals...
See the economic arguement? 
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
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Post: #60285 , Thu 4 May 06, 10:46PM |
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You know how many billions of dollars are saved each year by American businesses and American consumers that result from illegal immigrants working below minimum wage? Especially in the produce industry - expect prices to go up by at least 50% without illegals working. My uncle manages a strawberry farm in California and nearly all of his workers are illegal immigrants.
The only way that the problem is going to be solved is if businesses stop hiring illegals. Immigrants come here to work. No work incentive, they cease to come. However, it's the corporations that make "campaign contributions" to all our Senators and Representatives, and they are the ones who use the cheap labor. Unfortunately, our Congress is run by business.
The mere impulse of appetite is slavery, while obedience to the law we prescribe to ourselves is liberty. - Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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Post: #60298 , Fri 5 May 06, 1:49AM |
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:: sine
:: QA7 Taking responsibility | |
That's why we need a guest worker program, but also need to be able to keep track of who's in the country.
I'm not saying stop hiring migrant workers, I'm saying find a way to control the influx of them entering the country and find a way to regulate them. Migrant workers are VERY important. We can have migrant workers, though, without illegal immigration.
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
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Post: #60304 , Fri 5 May 06, 3:09AM |
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Well being a socialist I feel very strongly about workers rights and businesses like Wal-Mart that hire illegal immigrants for peanuts should be heavily penalized .
Let's have a black celebration
Black celebration
Tonight
To celebrate the fact
That we've seen the back
Of another black day
M.L Gore
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Post: #60307 , Fri 5 May 06, 4:30AM |
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I'd also like to note that immigrants are not on welfare. You have to be registered to receive welfare. ;)
The mere impulse of appetite is slavery, while obedience to the law we prescribe to ourselves is liberty. - Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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Post: #60334 , Fri 5 May 06, 6:18PM |
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:: sine
:: QA7 Taking responsibility | |
*shrugs* Don't ask me. I've just heard a statistic that said illegal immigrants get welfare... hrm... lemme see if I can support that.
http://immigration.about.com/o...fareHealthC.htm
Here we go...
"Although illegal immigrants are ineligible for welfare, food stamps and other public service programs, they can obtain some of them by using false identification papers. It's a big business and not difficult to create an identity for this purpose."
So I was right. ;) Just because they can't *legally* be on welfare, doesn't mean a thing.
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
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Post: #60359 , Sat 6 May 06, 7:09AM |
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Sine, I am going to be frank with you and I am going to say strong words.
You don't don't know the issue you are talking about. Your ignorance surpasses your understanding by as many miles as Paris is from Novosibirsk. Basically, and don't take this personally but learn and move on, you are an idiot if you believe in what you just said.
Remember this. The only crime an illegal immigrant commits is wanting the kind of life you have always taken for granted.
I am an immigrant pardoned by Spanish amnisy law. I overstayed my welcome in this country because the only other alternative was going back to my home country and facing a life I could not bare. I work hard and I pay taxes and the economical and cultural benefits from that now are far greater then the damage I caused when I was an illegal immigrant.
Law is strict because it has to be in order to protect the economy. Those who travell hundreds of miles in horrible conditions and break the law should be forgiven and welcomed.
Life is not merely comprised of tasks but tastes.
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Edit: dizzycloud, Sun 7 May 06, 5:31PM
Post: #60373 , Sat 6 May 06, 6:35PM |
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:: thisway
:: QA Staff (Administrator) | |
Tempers run high on topics like this because feelings run high. I feel it's important to respect that other people have different views, but that doesn't mean anyone has to pretend they think others are right right when they're not.
To throw in my two cents, I will say the following.
Firstly, that even if there is a difference between the argument over "legal" and "illegal" immigrants, in the eyes of the most dangerous organisations on this planet, and in this country in particular, there is not. The BNP would like nothing better than to have all human beings in this country who were themselves, or their parents, or their grandparents born and raised elsewhere. If you start to wail on "illegal" social migrants, then you play in to the hands of people like the BNP. This is dangerous and essential to avoid.
Secondly, my personal belief here, is that this is everyone's planet, and I think that it's a man's right to own property to a degree, but no man or no men's right to own a country and inform people whether or not they may live there. That's just my idealistic point and personal feeling and I wouldn't intend to try and persuade any of you of it, but I want you to know where I'm personally coming from.
Thirdly that it's wrong to assume that your rights, responsibilities, privileges and level of income tax as a "legitimate" inhabitant of a country will be lessened by somebody else sharing them. Any actual disadvantage you experience is small potatoes to someone, like Seth points out, who is in a position where their lives are miserable and oppressed by another government. You have absolutely no more right whatsoever to freedom, human rights, and the culture you desire to anyone else, whatsoever. To say otherwise would be very socially selfish.
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Post: #60374 , Sat 6 May 06, 7:07PM |
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Robin,
thank you. As alaways you have my respect for your sharp mind and your opinions. Even if you were to disagree, you'd have the respect as you are the man of argument.
S.
Life is not merely comprised of tasks but tastes.
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Post: #60525 , Mon 8 May 06, 1:53AM |
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:: sine
:: QA7 Taking responsibility | |
I know from different viewpoints my view is wrong. That's the beauty of differing viewpoints. I'm just saying there's gotta be a better way than the way things are now. There's gotta be a way to keep track of who comes and goes in the era of terrorism.
On the flipside, the people who come and go have NO rights. They deserve rights. They also have obligations to the society they are moving into and need to honor those obligations.
I think if it were just about good intentions, then there wouldn't be a problem. The issue, though, involves more than just good intentions.
My family imigrated generations ago. They wanted a better life, too. However, they did so legally and joined society as they were meant to. They didn't resist English. They didn't resist the culture. They didn't expect anyone to pay there way. That's the difference.
I know this next part isn't going to sound nice, too, but it's the truth. America doesn't have an obligation to save or fix the rest of the world. America has overextended itself. It's trillions of dollars in debt to the rest of the world--which it serves for free. It's time to reign things back in and take care of America. There may be bad conditions in Mexico, but there are places in the US that are horrible, too. There are Americans who need opportunities just as badly as Mexicans, or any other immigrants for that matter. Immigrants are important, don't get me wrong.
But America should serve and protect America first, then worry about the rest of the world.
I mean no offense to immigrants and non-Americans, but I think that should apply to any other country. I mean, Vicinte Fox keeps people from illegally immigrating to Mexico, yet throws a fit when America decides to toughen up on illegal immigration. Why? Because Mexico's cheif import is American money.
Yeah, I realize my opinion is socially selfish. I don't mind that. I think immigration is one of the few issues I'm 'conservative' on because of the impact I've seen it have on people. People lose their jobs, property, and rights because illegals are infringing on them. BOTH sides of the political spectrum try to downplay the impact because they want the Hispanic vote.
So I'd say that in sofar as preserving America, we do have the right to say "this is our land. Play by our rules or get out." Do the rules need to be changed to allow more fairness? YES. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that under the current system, illegal immigration is hurting my country. If the system were changed, the country AND the immigrants could be helped. In other words, instead of serving the agenda of one or the other party, serve both.
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
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Edit: sine, Mon 8 May 06, 5:10AM
Post: #60541 , Mon 8 May 06, 5:00AM |
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:: sine
:: QA7 Taking responsibility | |
I'd also like to point out that there's a difference between insensitivity and selfishness and ignorance.
Is my opinion insensitive and selfish? Yes. I never said it wasn't. I want to preserve my quality of life.
I do however, also, think there's gotta be a way to help the guys who want to come to America without hurting America. Illegal immigration, is not it, though. I don't think THAT opinion is unsensitive or selfish.
My points, as far as I could see were informed and at least partially based on facts.
If I blindly ran around saying immigrants suck and have no place in America, that'd be ignorant. I think they do have a right just as much as anyone else to be here. It just has to be on America's terms.
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
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Edit: sine, Mon 8 May 06, 5:23AM
Post: #60543 , Mon 8 May 06, 5:20AM |
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:: thisway
:: QA Staff (Administrator) | |
American is barely 200 years old. It was formed under the "melting pot" ideology that all men of all races could be united under one flag. Were it not for immigration, there would not be an America. It has never been reasonable for it to therefore say that it has had enough now, stamp its oversized feet and say "that's enough now, it's our land and all you political, economic and social migrants, oh and not to mention all you natives, have to do what we say, go where we want and live by our rules."
Yes, there are rules and yes, it's important to go by them when they make sense. But you said yourself the rules in America need changing, and that is the overridingly important point in all this. How dare anyone expect desperate, desperate immigrants to live by laws and regulations that even the right-wing POVs such as yours have to agree are intolerable?
You mentioned terrorism, of course... well, I think the shrub's War on Terror has got to an extremely bad place if they're sacrificing the rights of thousands in case one of them might be a terrorist.
America does indeed have a moral obligation to help the rest of the world. It is in a position to. It has the money to. It could quite happily tick a box and never see its trillions of charitable debt again, and still have trillions more to spare. Hell, if they stopped buying guns for about ten minutes of the day, that debt would be wrote off - they literally spend hundreds of millions of dollars per minute on the armed forces. The way to help the world may be with a knife occasionally, viz Iraq, but most of the time it is with the olive branch and the blanket. America should not only be doing this, they should be doing more, and accepting immigrants with open arms is a way to go about this. Countries like Mexico are obviously not in a position to do things like this.
I just want to throw in an additional point here: this is not just about America. Britain has its little people who run around boo-hooing about immigration, and most of them are members or voters of the BNP. They perhaps have even less right to do so; America may have more of the wherewithal to do the right thing, but we have declared ourselves the welfare state. So if a social migrant with paralysis wants to come here to live on disability benefits, then more power to him. If a small child is brought by his family and is diagnosed with diabetes during his incoming medical, the NHS is there to pay for a lifetime of medicine and consultation, and it should do so. If a family comes to these shores and needs just a few months of housing and financial support to get themselves up and running, they should do so, and the government should help.
The problem with the British system is that it's too relaxed with our "citizens" and too stringent on "immigrants." Someone who is simply lazy can indeed piss on the system at the moments and get off work on benefits. But an immigrant family can barely get the support they need. Our problems, I think, would be sorted out by regaining some of that British self-fortitude we can all remember from the history books, get only what help we need, so that others can do the same when they come to this country.
And as for changing the rest of the world so that people don't want to move out of their countries so much? Lead by example.
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Post: #60559 , Mon 8 May 06, 8:30AM |
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:: sine
:: QA7 Taking responsibility | |
I'd like to point out that the melding pot ideology wasn't adopted until the late 1800s/early 1900s.
America was founded as a place for people to either escape religious persecution or make money. If you look at the original colonies, THAT was the goal. And there was no melting pot. They were mostly white.
Going with your melting pot point, though; I take issue with the LARGE NUMBER of illegals who say they have no allegiance to the US, that they should have more rights than citizens, that citizens should learn THEIR language, etc. If they want to come here so badly, they need to JOIN the melting pot, not make a new soup.
The laws need reforming, but until they are reformed, America can't continue to let thousands and thousands of UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS in every day. I feel bad for them, but it's not America's duty to take every person who's poor or doesn't like their goverment.
Also, cutting off immigration has historical precidence, but I'm not talking about cutting off immigration. Let me repeat that I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT CUTTING OFF IMMIGRATION. IMMIGRANTS ARE GOOD AND IMPORTANT. Illegal immigrants cause problems.
For the sake of your arguement, though, you act as if this is the first time the US would ever restrict immigration. The Chinese were restricted in the late 1800s because the US ran out of jobs for them in agricuture, WHERE THEY WANTED TO WORK. I believe there were other restrictions throughout US History, but I don't have the time to research all of them right now. When a country has no resources to support ILLEGAL immigrants, it needs to cut them off.
I think I need to reemphasize something because it doesn't tend to stick in this topic. I'M PRO-IMMIGRAION; but it has to be legal. There are legal ways to come here, be documented, set yourself up, and have the BETTER LIFE YOU WANT without ruining life in the long run for others. THAT is what I'm trying to stress.
Yes, the laws need reformation; but that's not something that can happen overnight. Enforcement won't happen over night, either. However, the US does have the right and responsibility to enforce its laws, especially when those transgressing them are hurting the US.
We don't have a moral or financial obligation to everyone in the world who is less well off than we are. Some may want the US to have one, because we DO tend to help those who are less well off.
I honestly don't know Britain's entire situation. I've heard different things about immigration there, but in America there's just too much strain on the system and we're running out of financial resources to support illegal immigrants. I think the US needs financial reform, too, but until we are able to support everyone in the world who wants to come to America, there has to be reasonable solutions to protect Americans and help Americans before we take in anyone who can swim across a river or walk through a desert, because honestly, that's the only qualification that the illegals have.
Another point I'd like to make is that the illegal immigrants are harming the people who are trying to come to the US legally for job and amnesty related reasons. By taking away immigration resources and sneaking in, they jump the line and people who REALLY need help get jilted.
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
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Edit: sine, Mon 8 May 06, 1:36PM
Post: #60581 , Mon 8 May 06, 1:28PM |
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I've noticed that when human rights are mentioned, an American means "American's rights".
United States donates only a tiny fraction of its GDP to the rest of the world in need. The common misconception is that Americans are billed daily to sustained and African or a Ukrainian. Not true. Americans are billed daily to puff up their army.
Life is not merely comprised of tasks but tastes.
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Post: #60649 , Tue 9 May 06, 2:04AM |
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:: sine
:: QA7 Taking responsibility | |
I'm not saying that we're billed daily to support Africa and stuff, but they do get lots of money... In fact, some African leaders ask America to STOP giving money because it makes conditions worse. I find that amusing. 
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
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Post: #60665 , Tue 9 May 06, 4:47AM |
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:: bobbo
:: QA5 Having the neighbours round | |
I know it is so mad the whole African donation thing, what we need to do is invest, invest, invest, which is what china are doing at the moment.i think they are the third biggest investor in the world soon to become the second biggest i do believe.So there you go soon enough you may find that China has been the saviour of Africa, i bet the American's didn't see that one coming lol.
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Post: #60681 , Tue 9 May 06, 4:49PM |
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